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IDS Forum
Re: ids Digest, Vol 106, Issue 6
Posted By: ACECPU
Date: Friday, 5 September 2014, at 3:41 p.m.
Informix was the technical winner but Oracle won the market share and sales war.
They used FUD to effectively win sales, new vendor, product applications, internet applications and startups, promisinyyrythe world delivered late and 1/2 the world.
Oracle traded short term product revenue for long-term Total revenue (sales plus support).
Sent from my iPod
On Sep 5, 2014, at 7:49 AM, ids-request@iiug.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Informix/Oracle [33666] (Fernando Nunes)
> 2. Re: Informix/Oracle [33667] (BENJAMIN THOMPSON)
> 3. Re: Informix/Oracle [33668] (Jerry Keesee)
> 4. Re: Informix/Oracle [33669] (Art Kagel)
> 5. Re: Informix/Oracle [33670] (Jack Parker)
> 6. Re: Informix/Oracle [33671] (Fernando Nunes)
> 7. Re: Informix/Oracle [33672] (BENJAMIN THOMPSON)
> 8. Re: Informix/Oracle [33673] (Art Kagel)
> 9. Re: Informix/Oracle [33674] (Fernando Nunes)
> 10. Re: DE Edition [33675] (Kate Bellsouth)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 07:14:00 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Fernando Nunes" <domusonline@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Informix/Oracle [33666]
> To: ids@iiug.org
> Message-ID: <20140905111400.6D27DA24B@perform.iiug.org>
>
> Expected from a competitor who assumes customers are not well informed.
> He probably is stuck in 2001 when that was the "official Oracle speech".
> The problem is that 13 years have passed, and IBM launched the following
> Informix versions:
> 9.40, 10, 11.10, 11.50, 12.10.
> 5 major versions in 13 years. On average 1 each 2.6 years. Not bad for a
> product with no roadmap.
> It could be better if I included 9.3 which I think was released by IBM, but
> with little to no influence.
> It's your choice to trust the future based on FUD from competitors or the
> past history from IBM. And if you know Informix you know the great features
> IBM have been putting in Informix.
>
> I'd recommend this blog post, apologizing for self promotion:
>
>
> http://informix-technology.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/10-years-of-ibm-10-anos-de-ibm.html
>
> It was written 3 years ago... You just have to add up 12.10 version to the
> bunch... It doesn't change the global idea... just enforces it...
>
> As for HA options... HDR, multiple RSS, multiple SDS, ER...
> I think we have plenty options... But if you need some technical
> clarification...
>
> As for the FUD... When he says to you (he will) that IBM doesn't have a
> public roadmap for Informix, ask him to show you the public roadmap Oracle
> has for their database.
> When you get a public document that has real features and not vaporware
> come back to us :)
>
> Regards.
>
> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 8:13 AM, FLIP VAN WYNGAARDT <flipv@raf.co.za> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I received the following comments from an Oracle Sales person:
>>
>> "Please note the below note to add in your motivation:
>>
>> IBM does not have a road map for Informix, making it a stagnant product and
>> there is a possibility of little to zero support for Informix.
>>
>> High availability is an issue for Informix, therefore if RAF regards the
>> Informix DB as mission critical then they might want to have it available
>> 24/7.
>>
>> The abovementioned points are usually the reason why a customer would
>> consider
>> moving to Oracle database"
>>
>> Please give me your comments on this statement.
>>
>> Thanks
> *******************************************************************************
>> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
> --
> Fernando Nunes
> Portugal
>
> http://informix-technology.blogspot.com
> My email works... but I don't check it frequently...
>
> --001a11c2d676e3963905024f8f19
>
>
> *******************************************************************************
> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 07:15:52 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "BENJAMIN THOMPSON" <benjamin.thompson@bskyb.com>
> Subject: Re: Informix/Oracle [33667]
> To: ids@iiug.org
> Message-ID: <20140905111552.98164A2E3@perform.iiug.org>
>
> I think it's clear that these are just made up reasons that might work on less
> clued-up customers or ones who favour Oracle in any case. It's FUD.
>
> A quick google found this roadmap presentation for VNext+ and VNext++.
>
> http://www.informix.nu/pagang/Informix_v12_1_Highlights-RoadMap-2013%20and%20Beyond-v1.pdf
>
> If I wanted to pick a weakness in Informix, high availability would not be it.
> There is little than can be done with DataGuard, RAC and GoldenGate than
> cannot be achieved with Informix flexible grid. Oracle's implementations are
> not perfect or have trade-offs: RAC can reduce performance for applications
> unless the workload can be split out so that nodes in the cluster do not need
> access to the same blocks.
>
> As I look after both databases, I can think of some areas where Oracle is
> stronger but it's horses for courses and I agree with the consensus that many
> apps are easier to run and may run faster on Informix.
>
> I think the lesson here is to do your own research and testing and don't trust
> salespeople :)
>
>
> *******************************************************************************
> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 07:17:04 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Jerry Keesee" <jkeesee@us.ibm.com>
> Subject: Re: Informix/Oracle [33668]
> To: ids@iiug.org
> Message-ID: <20140905111704.BB934A032@perform.iiug.org>
>
> Hi,
>
> I appreciate all of you who have responded on this. We are continually
> adding significant enhancements to the product. We also continue to add
> new customers. You can't keep a business alive without new customers,
> partners, and enhancements to technology.
>
> Regards,
> Jerry Keesee
>
> From: "Lloyd S" <lloyd_s@rediffmail.com>
> To: ids@iiug.org
> Date: 09/05/2014 06:31 AM
> Subject: Re: Informix/Oracle [33662]
> Sent by: ids-bounces@iiug.org
>
> Agree with you Flip, blame it on IBM its step father. Informix won't get
> new
> customers but those have been using Informix for more than 10 years know
> how
> good it is.
> I have a customer who is still using his mission critical system on IDS
> 9.21
> which is out of support for over 10 years. Others RDBMS would have turned
> to
> stone by now.
>
> From: "FLIP VAN WYNGAARDT"flipv@raf.co.za
> Sent:Fri, 05 Sep 2014 12:44:06 +0530
> To: ids@iiug.org
> Subject: Informix/Oracle [33660]
> Hi All,
>>
>> I received the following comments from an Oracle Sales person:
>>
>> "Please note the below note to add in your motivation:
>>
>> IBM does not have a road map for Informix, making it a stagnant product
> and
>> there is a possibility of little to zero support for Informix.
>>
>> High availability is an issue for Informix, therefore if RAF regards the
>
>> Informix DB as mission critical then they might want to have it
> available
>> 24/7.
>>
>> The abovementioned points are usually the reason why a customer would
> consider
>> moving to Oracle database"
>>
>> Please give me your comments on this statement.
>>
>> Thanks
>
> *******************************************************************************
>
>> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
>
> *******************************************************************************
>
> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
>
> *******************************************************************************
> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 07:19:20 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Art Kagel" <art.kagel@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Informix/Oracle [33669]
> To: ids@iiug.org
> Message-ID: <20140905111920.B4CB1A2E3@perform.iiug.org>
>
> Flip, in case you do not know, Madison is the IBM engineer and genius
> behind Informix's Industry leading HA features. He should know!
>
> Art
>
> Art S. Kagel, Principal Consultant
> ASK Database Management
>
> Blog: http://informix-myview.blogspot.com/
>
> Disclaimer: Please keep in mind that my own opinions are my own opinions
> and do not reflect on the IIUG, nor any other organization with which I am
> associated either explicitly, implicitly, or by inference. Neither do
> those opinions reflect those of other individuals affiliated with any
> entity with which I am affiliated nor those of the entities themselves.
>
> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 5:11 AM, Madison Pruet <mpruet@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>
>> Lies.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Sep 5, 2014, at 2:14 AM, "FLIP VAN WYNGAARDT" <flipv@raf.co.za>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I received the following comments from an Oracle Sales person:
>>>
>>> "Please note the below note to add in your motivation:
>>>
>>> IBM does not have a road map for Informix, making it a stagnant product
>> and
>>> there is a possibility of little to zero support for Informix.
>>>
>>> High availability is an issue for Informix, therefore if RAF regards the
>>> Informix DB as mission critical then they might want to have it available
>>> 24/7.
>>>
>>> The abovementioned points are usually the reason why a customer would
>> consider
>>> moving to Oracle database"
>>>
>>> Please give me your comments on this statement.
>>>
>>> Thanks
> *******************************************************************************
>>
>>> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
> *******************************************************************************
>> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
> --001a11c33b7c9a543b05024fa381
>
>
> *******************************************************************************
> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 07:20:37 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Jack Parker" <jack.parker4@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: Informix/Oracle [33670]
> To: ids@iiug.org
> Message-ID: <20140905112037.B3ADEA2D6@perform.iiug.org>
>
> Aaaah, Nothing to get the old hive humming like Orrible FUD.
>
> cheers all.
> j.
> =20
> On Sep 5, 2014, at 7:17 AM, Jerry Keesee <jkeesee@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,=20
>> =20
>> I appreciate all of you who have responded on this. We are continually=20=
>
>> adding significant enhancements to the product. We also continue to =
> add=20
>> new customers. You can't keep a business alive without new customers,=20=
>
>> partners, and enhancements to technology.=20
>> =20
>> Regards,=20
>> Jerry Keesee=20
>> =20
>> From: "Lloyd S" <lloyd_s@rediffmail.com>=20
>> To: ids@iiug.org=20
>> Date: 09/05/2014 06:31 AM=20
>> Subject: Re: Informix/Oracle [33662]=20
>> Sent by: ids-bounces@iiug.org=20
>> =20
>> Agree with you Flip, blame it on IBM its step father. Informix won't =
> get=20
>> new=20
>> customers but those have been using Informix for more than 10 years =
> know=20
>> how=20
>> good it is.=20
>> I have a customer who is still using his mission critical system on =
> IDS=20
>> 9.21=20
>> which is out of support for over 10 years. Others RDBMS would have =
> turned=20
>> to=20
>> stone by now.=20
>> =20
>> From: "FLIP VAN WYNGAARDT"flipv@raf.co.za=20
>> Sent:Fri, 05 Sep 2014 12:44:06 +0530=20
>> To: ids@iiug.org=20
>> Subject: Informix/Oracle [33660]=20
>> Hi All,=20
>>> =20
>>> I received the following comments from an Oracle Sales person:=20
>>> =20
>>> "Please note the below note to add in your motivation:=20
>>> =20
>>> IBM does not have a road map for Informix, making it a stagnant =
> product=20
>> and=20
>>> there is a possibility of little to zero support for Informix.=20
>>> =20
>>> High availability is an issue for Informix, therefore if RAF regards =
> the=20
>> =20
>>> Informix DB as mission critical then they might want to have it=20
>> available=20
>>> 24/7.=20
>>> =20
>>> The abovementioned points are usually the reason why a customer would=20=
>
>> consider=20
>>> moving to Oracle database"=20
>>> =20
>>> Please give me your comments on this statement.=20
>>> =20
>>> Thanks=20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>> =20
>> =
> **************************************************************************=
> *****=20
>> =20
>>> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.=20=
>
>>> =20
>>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> =
> **************************************************************************=
> *****=20
>> =20
>> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.=20
>> =20
>> =20
>> =
> **************************************************************************=
> *****=20
>> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.=20=
>
>> =20
>
>
> *******************************************************************************
> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 07:20:40 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Fernando Nunes" <domusonline@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Informix/Oracle [33671]
> To: ids@iiug.org
> Message-ID: <20140905112040.AD7F1A2D6@perform.iiug.org>
>
> I forgot to add something.... It' in the article, but maybe you don't have
> the patient to read it...
> Ask that guy how many Oracle versions are fully supported without extra
> cost.
> For Informix the answer is 11.50 (which was released in 2008), 11.70 and
> 12.10. And since we write that the EOS (End Of Support) must be announced
> with one year advance, this will still be true in September 2015.
> Less forced migrations, more value for money, more investment
> protection.... A while ago only Oracle 11g was supported. Now 12c is in the
> bunch, but for some time only one supported version... And we have
> customers complaining.... oh well... :)
>
> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Fernando Nunes <domusonline@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Expected from a competitor who assumes customers are not well informed.
>> He probably is stuck in 2001 when that was the "official Oracle speech".
>> The problem is that 13 years have passed, and IBM launched the following
>> Informix versions:
>> 9.40, 10, 11.10, 11.50, 12.10.
>> 5 major versions in 13 years. On average 1 each 2.6 years. Not bad for a
>> product with no roadmap.
>> It could be better if I included 9.3 which I think was released by IBM, but
>> with little to no influence.
>> It's your choice to trust the future based on FUD from competitors or the
>> past history from IBM. And if you know Informix you know the great features
>> IBM have been putting in Informix.
>>
>> I'd recommend this blog post, apologizing for self promotion:
> http://informix-technology.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/10-years-of-ibm-10-anos-de-ibm.html
>>
>> It was written 3 years ago... You just have to add up 12.10 version to the
>> bunch... It doesn't change the global idea... just enforces it...
>>
>> As for HA options... HDR, multiple RSS, multiple SDS, ER...
>> I think we have plenty options... But if you need some technical
>> clarification...
>>
>> As for the FUD... When he says to you (he will) that IBM doesn't have a
>> public roadmap for Informix, ask him to show you the public roadmap Oracle
>> has for their database.
>> When you get a public document that has real features and not vaporware
>> come back to us :)
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 8:13 AM, FLIP VAN WYNGAARDT <flipv@raf.co.za>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I received the following comments from an Oracle Sales person:
>>>
>>> "Please note the below note to add in your motivation:
>>>
>>> IBM does not have a road map for Informix, making it a stagnant product
>> and
>>> there is a possibility of little to zero support for Informix.
>>>
>>> High availability is an issue for Informix, therefore if RAF regards the
>>> Informix DB as mission critical then they might want to have it available
>>> 24/7.
>>>
>>> The abovementioned points are usually the reason why a customer would
>>> consider
>>> moving to Oracle database"
>>>
>>> Please give me your comments on this statement.
>>>
>>> Thanks
> *******************************************************************************
>>> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>>
>> --
>> Fernando Nunes
>> Portugal
>>
>> http://informix-technology.blogspot.com
>> My email works... but I don't check it frequently...
>>
>> --001a11c2d676e3963905024f8f19
> *******************************************************************************
>> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
> --
> Fernando Nunes
> Portugal
>
> http://informix-technology.blogspot.com
> My email works... but I don't check it frequently...
>
> --001a11c2d676b2503605024fa791
>
>
> *******************************************************************************
> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 07:23:24 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "BENJAMIN THOMPSON" <benjamin.thompson@bskyb.com>
> Subject: Re: Informix/Oracle [33672]
> To: ids@iiug.org
> Message-ID: <20140905112324.8CF15A33F@perform.iiug.org>
>
> Art, I hate to stick up for the other side, but I do like to stick to the
> technical facts. Are you aware of DataGuard? It's not a third party feature,
> doesn't require any specialist hardware, supports multiple targets and delayed
> apply. Infiniband is not required for RAC either, although it is recommended.
>
>
> *******************************************************************************
> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 07:32:52 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Art Kagel" <art.kagel@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Informix/Oracle [33673]
> To: ids@iiug.org
> Message-ID: <20140905113252.79733A113@perform.iiug.org>
>
> Ben:
>
> I do tend to get carried away. To mangle an old saying "Fight FUD with
> FUD!" As far as RAC without Infiniband, you know as well as I do that it
> is as near to a requirement for decent performance as you can get.
> DataGuard is, IB, an extra cost item and I honestly thought that it used to
> be a 3rd party product that Oracle bought. No true?
>
> Adding you to my list of multiple product DBAs that prefer Informix when
> there's a choice and no compelling reason to use another DB.
>
> Art
>
> Art S. Kagel, Principal Consultant
> ASK Database Management
>
> Blog: http://informix-myview.blogspot.com/
>
> Disclaimer: Please keep in mind that my own opinions are my own opinions
> and do not reflect on the IIUG, nor any other organization with which I am
> associated either explicitly, implicitly, or by inference. Neither do
> those opinions reflect those of other individuals affiliated with any
> entity with which I am affiliated nor those of the entities themselves.
>
> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 7:23 AM, BENJAMIN THOMPSON <
> benjamin.thompson@bskyb.com> wrote:
>
>> Art, I hate to stick up for the other side, but I do like to stick to the
>> technical facts. Are you aware of DataGuard? It's not a third party
>> feature,
>> doesn't require any specialist hardware, supports multiple targets and
>> delayed
>> apply. Infiniband is not required for RAC either, although it is
>> recommended.
> *******************************************************************************
>> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
> --001a11c36698e883aa05024fd378
>
>
> *******************************************************************************
> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 07:35:53 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Fernando Nunes" <domusonline@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Informix/Oracle [33674]
> To: ids@iiug.org
> Message-ID: <20140905113553.44827A1A8@perform.iiug.org>
>
> I suppose that by 3rd party it's assumed the Golden Gate product which has
> been bought by Oracle (mainly due to the fact that their native table base
> replication never won against this product). DG and RAC are extra cost on
> top of the "enterprise" product, but that discussion always comes down to
> $$$ and discounts so it's a never ending story.
> But yes, once you buy Informix Enterprise Edition you can use all the
> features apart Warehouse accelerator and storage optimization (compression).
>
> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 12:23 PM, BENJAMIN THOMPSON <
> benjamin.thompson@bskyb.com> wrote:
>
>> Art, I hate to stick up for the other side, but I do like to stick to the
>> technical facts. Are you aware of DataGuard? It's not a third party
>> feature,
>> doesn't require any specialist hardware, supports multiple targets and
>> delayed
>> apply. Infiniband is not required for RAC either, although it is
>> recommended.
> *******************************************************************************
>> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
> --
> Fernando Nunes
> Portugal
>
> http://informix-technology.blogspot.com
> My email works... but I don't check it frequently...
>
> --001a11c2d676c2cbbd05024fde07
>
>
> *******************************************************************************
> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 07:49:42 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Kate Bellsouth" <katedart@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: DE Edition [33675]
> To: ids@iiug.org
> Message-ID: <20140905114942.2145BA2F4@perform.iiug.org>
>
> 11.70fc7
>
> Thanks,
> Kate
>
>> On Sep 4, 2014, at 5:05 PM, "Fernando Nunes" <domusonline@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'm glad you made it, but I still don't understand the license... Which
>> fixpack are you using?
>> Thanks and regards.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 7:58 PM, Kate Bellsouth <katedart@bellsouth.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Omg you are a life saver! Once i got down to 1 gb memory and 1 cpu i was
>>> able
>>> to start a database that had 11gb. This is wonderful.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kate
>>>
>>>>> On Sep 2, 2014, at 1:32 PM, "Fernando Nunes" <domusonline@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This won't be a very useful help, but apparently the license was changed
>>>> recently:
>>>>
>>>> Here there's no mention to the limit of 8GB:
> http://www-03.ibm.com/software/sla/sladb.nsf/displaylis/1723521CE8C459C985257D250052AB2D?OpenDocument
>>>>
>>>> Here there is a reference to that and other limitations...:
> http://www-03.ibm.com/software/sla/sladb.nsf/displaylis/A909B0899D1930D085257B39006E65C2?OpenDocument
>>>>
>>>> You should contact an IBM sales team member officially
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Kate Tomchik <katedart@bellsouth.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>> I need some advice on the Developer's Edition. It says you can only use
>>> 8GB
>>>>> for the database. Does that include temp space, logging, etc?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> katedart@bellsouth.net
> *******************************************************************************
>>>>> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Fernando Nunes
>>>> Portugal
>>>>
>>>> http://informix-technology.blogspot.com
>>>> My email works... but I don't check it frequently...
>>>>
>>>> --20cf303bf576bed2d705021881e6
> *******************************************************************************
>>>> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
> *******************************************************************************
>>> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>>
>> --
>> Fernando Nunes
>> Portugal
>>
>> http://informix-technology.blogspot.com
>> My email works... but I don't check it frequently...
>>
>> --047d7b10c847fe897a050243b52b
> *******************************************************************************
>> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
>
> *******************************************************************************
> Forum Note: Use "Reply" to post a response in the discussion forum.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ids mailing list
> ids@iiug.org
> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/ids
>
>
> End of ids Digest, Vol 106, Issue 6
> ***********************************
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